March 07, 2011
IS PAUL A TRUE APOSTLE OF JESUS?
The Christian Bible is not Holy. It may contain holy scriptures, depending on your concept of holiness and purity, another topic for another day. But the question here today is why the Catholic and other sects regard Paul, formerly known as Saul, an apostle of Jesus. Whether you are an atheist, you belong to a religious group or sect, you are welcome to post your views and your comments about Paul or as the Catholics call him St.Paul.
Apologies for the technical errors, as Nic Madlayan's full comment cannot be contained by the comment field, as it is full of great information hahaha! So I would like to rewrite and post his comment as an independent blog here in this section.
Nic Madlayan wrote:
Hello everyone. I would like to join the forum and respond to the anonymous contributor.
Here are my view points, and if you please, I'd like to enumerate them:
Intro:Let's always be mindful that we are using the Christian Bible as our basis, and I would like to stress out that the closest English version to the original Hebrew and Greek writings, is the King James version.
The Law of God is DEFINITE, from word to word, iota for iota, it should be interpreted literally, and not in ESSENCE. We must not apply our own interpretation and translation of the LAW. It is Pure and shall be UNQUESTIONED. Therefore, no speculations, just evidences. Circumstancial, actual and internal evidences are required for this discussion, since we are talking about the law.
1.The Wicked - an example of the Wicked and their acts, if you can remember Cain - 1 John 3:12 (King James Version) - 12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous". So establish first that one can be called wicked, by slaying the innocent blood, and KNOWING that what they have done is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, God and His Laws. Another verse, and I would like to emphasize how God specifically sees and will not justify the wicked who shed the blood of the innocent, and more importantly - THE RIGHTEOUS OR THE SAINTS.
Let's find out if Paul has done these things, apart from his regular practice of murdering the innocent, referring back to Gemini's given verses - Paul OPENLY ADMITS in- Acts 26:9-11 9I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
As you can see, he has murdered the INNOCENT, THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE SAINTS, and was not satisfied, he even compelled them, before murdering them, to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, denounce Jesus and FORCED AND TORTURED THEM TO PERFORM BLASPHEMIES. You noticed I emphasized the acts of not just MURDERING, but TORTURING... Imagine the torture of innocent men, their wives and their CHILDREN.
We have now established that Paul is the mastermind and the perpetrator of the murders and torture on the innocent, the righteous and the saints.
2. God has very specific laws and instructions, and this is what he said about his anointed ones, the righteous, innocent and the saints: 1Chronicles 16:22 - 22Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
3. Yes I agree, God is forgiving, but HE IS ALSO A GOD OF JUSTICE - refer to Luke 11:49-52
49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Trivia: Paul was a lawyer of the Pharisees, top of his class. Now, he was very apologetic in defending himself, but not lawful. He neglected the weighter matters of the law, which is justice, mercy and (truth) in Greek - Pistis.
4. 2 kinds of Apostle, in Greek, noun and verb. Paul claims to be an apostle, right? Let's refer to Paul's own writings and admission Roman 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God. So why is he separated from the Gospel, and what is the Gospel of God? I hope you understand this verse, read it very carefully, and try your very best to find out what is the Gospel of God, and how grave is being separated from the Gospel of God.
5. Being in Apostle - your words that they do not have to be anointed and appointed, I will disagree with you. Let's find out the FIRST CRITERIA FOR BECOMING A TRUE FOLLOWER - who God and Jesus accept for disciples and servants first in Acts 10:1-2
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Then Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
These are the traits of a person to be accepted as Jesus' followers, and the CHOSEN APOSTLES HAVE STRICTER CRITERIA, would you know that, for they are close followers of Jesus. In another time, I will tell you the criteria for apostleship, after you do your review of the above given guidelines.
Again NO SPECULATIONS, only evidences. For Jesus' words are true and absolute.
Nic Madlayan, a disciple of The Teacher...
I don't believe that PAUL is a true apostle of Jesus. According to the Law and to the Testimony, there are only 12 apostles, he can't proclaim that he is an apostle, because he was never appointed and anointed by Christ. A MURDERER can never be an apostle of Jesus, he is not righteous and lawful. He murdered innocent men, women and children.
ReplyDeleteExodus: 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
God will not justify or forgive the people who have killed the innocent.
Therefore, Paul is a liar. Let's hear some people first before I tell you why I am sure that Paul is a bloody LIAR.
ReplyDeleteHe died a hero? He's a fucked up guy who made a lot of lies.
ReplyDeleteHe was a sinner but repented, that's how he became an apostle of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. He was forgiven, and so he can be a follower of Christ.
ReplyDeleteHi Invictus! Thanks, point taken lol.
ReplyDeleteHi Carol! thank you for joining us. I hope you don't mind that we get blunt here at Firestarter since that's the objective... oh well, here goes... say there is a God, and you could be referring to the Christian God in the bible when you said Paul was forgiven right? Could you please read the key verses again, about the Christian God not forgiving, like never ever, a person who killed the innocent... there are only 2 sins in a million, that will never be forgiven... one is the shedding of innocent blood, like women and children... anyway,Gemini will tell you the rest... thanks Carol, let us know what you think.
@Gemini: why can't sinners be apostles? are not sinners the reason and purpose for the existence of jesus..? the old testament has been superseded. god may never justify the wicked but that doesn't necessarily mean he will never ever forgive. justifying does not always equate to forgiveness. a liar could repent and speak the truth, and in this act of accepting and admitting his mistake he may proceed as an apostle. i am speaking in general here, of course, not only of paul. i don't really know much about paul as i'm not an avid bible reader, but if he died a liar then let truth be told. enlighten me.
ReplyDeleteMy response to the Anonymous contributor:
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for visiting our site. We welcome every inquiry, and keep those questions and comments coming... This may be a long one, but I hope I will answer your questions. To answer your first question about sinners - Paul is not just a sinner, as you can see, the Exodus verse specified - "WICKED". Let's define wicked, in the biblical etymology, Hebrew as basis: Rasha - morally wrong, bad person, condemened, ungodly. This means a wicked person has moral foundations, and knew about the laws but chose to sin and do something very bad, as against a "sinner", who may have done something wrong, without knowing it and did not intend to sin. So you are absolutely correct that Jesus came to give way for the "sinners" to be forgiven, is this familiar "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"? But Paul is classified as Wicked, and not just a sinner, for he knows the law and has thought about the atrocities he has done, like the murder of innocent people. Acts 26:09-11 King James version - Paul said: I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
To justify, in Hebrew - Tsa'daq: to cleanse, to make right. So in essence, the wicked will not be stripped of guilt and God will not pardon, or forgive the wicked... So from there, please read more and let me know if you have further questions, so we can proceed with our discussion.
Thank you.
Hi again Carol,
ReplyDeleteI hope that Gemini has enlightened you with his response above, and we would like to request you to come back and provide us with your reference as to where you saw that Paul was indeed forgiven, for a more fruitful discussion.
To the anonymous contributor, thanks for joining us. I hope Gemini has answered your questions about Paul being Wicked, and the difference of a sinner and a wicked peron.
I am certain that Jesus meant what he requested the Father, when he said forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing, and you're right that he came to save the sinners. But there is a huge difference between a sinner and a wicked person. The wicked will never be forgiven, for they have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, how? They were taught and they are not ignorant to the laws and the moral standard God has bestowed upon us. The wicked man, is a learned man, but crafted and carefully thought of his acts. Paul admitted that he verily thought about his murdering acts. For Gos will hear the cries of the saints and the blood of the innocent, especially children, will call out for God's justice, and who do you think God will listen to when the time comes? Paul or the innocent people he has murdered? So I encourage you to keep reading and keep coming up with great questions and comments.
Thanks guys! Keep them coming...
thank you for the short history, it was very insightful.
ReplyDeletei agree that "wicked" and "sinner" don't exactly mean the same thing. however, in essence, they are the same. is not a wicked person a sinner..? is not a "conscious" sinner wicked..? the only difference is depth. the wicked commit sins, the sinner [sometimes] falls into it.
in any case, i deem it as a play and each character has a role to portray. otherwise, this blog wouldn't be existing. paul was instrumental in establishing the christian church precisely for what he portrayed. yes, he consciously - without question - committed atrocities but in the end he recognized and accepted the folly of his actions, which led him to turn his life around. yes, he's a sinner and he was WiCKED but i believe in a forgiving god -- i'm sure it says somewhere in the bible that if your brother sins hundreds of times, you must forgive millions of times, or something to that effect. so, anyway, may he who is pure cast the first stone. so does anyone know where paul is now? if we are to put it in the context of dante, is he somewhere near where judas is who is stuck in the bottom of the cone with satan who, incidentally, were also two key players in the (hi)story?
as i mentioned, the old testament has been superseded. everyone is borne out of and into a circumstance. paul's actions before his conversion may never be justified in the face of god, and justly so, but he wouldn't have been one of the examples had he not done the things he did -- the good, the bad and the ugly. still, the events that unfolded in his life after his conversion could be considered a testament to the point "Exodus: 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked." he lived a terrible life, was constantly persecuted, and died a horrible death. he experienced everything he did to others before he converted. there was no mercy and i think it was to make a better example of faith and fate.
the point is that paul was one of means to an end. nobody knows if god never really forgave him but the essence of his life because of his actions were vital in the propagation of christianity. and this is why he should be considered an apostle. his is a bitter fate of faith.
judge not lest you be judged. whether paul is an apostle or not, he existed to make jesus and the entire god-mission stand out. he, like we all are, are pawns in the grand scheme of things.
Also, I do not think that one has to be "appointed" or "anointed" (by christ nonetheless) to be an "apostle". An apostle can be a supporter, an advocate, a messenger, a follower, a witness, a convert, or a freak. It's not the person, it's the message. paul tried to make up for his "wickedness" up to his death. in the end, he imparted a message of repentance and absolute faith.
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous! Thanks for joining us again. This is another very interesting discussion.
ReplyDeleteFirst - Let's establish the definition and the actions of the WICKED. The Wicked do not commit sins, THEY PRACTICE IT. There's a huge difference between committing randomly, and practising it. The Wicked are, in our terminology - professionals, they think, analyze, plot and craft against God. The wicked, when you thoroughly read the bible, do not just sin against man, but they sin against the Holy Spirit, blasphemed against it, and sinning against the Holy Spirit is UNFORGIVABLE, will never be forgiven, will never be justified, and God will not listen to the prayers of the wicked, even if they pretend to repent. The murder of the innocent is already a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Paul, even after he claimed he repented and converted, consistently blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. He was a crafty and guile man, who used Jesus for his own ulterior motives, and far worse - to continue to do wicked acts. Also, if you are a firm believer of Jesus Christ, and accept that he speaks the truth, you will realize that Paul contradicted Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God numerous times, Jesus has warned the true apostles about Paul, years before Paul came into picture.
I shall continue to discuss these things if you come back with a name and read references about the above mentioned topics I wrote. Thank you!
Good day everyone! What a great way to start the day. I am very pleased to see our anonymous contributor to be back in the forum pages again. I am all worked up and eager to join you guys, but this time, I shall introduce another Firestarter first, who will join this very insightful, eye opening and hopefully inspirational discussion. Allow me to introduce Nic Madlayan, a disciple of The Teacher, into our panel.
ReplyDeletewould like to correct errors due to carelessness:
ReplyDeletehe, like we all are, WAS A PAWN in the grand scheme of things.
(by christ, NO LESS)
thank you and welcome Nic!
And to answer our anonymous contributor as to the whereabouts of Paul, he is with Cain, along with Nero, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.
ReplyDeleteHello again everyone! That was a full load of great information from the master of Inductive Study, Nic Madlayan. I am humbled and honored to have you join us Sir. I apologize Nic, for the earlier tech difficulties, so I opted to publish your response in a separate blog. Thank you to Gemini and to our anonymous contributor, and I wish that he or she give us the privilege to address him/her with a name lol. Anyway, I agree with Nic, 100%, and would like to make a statement, all in good time, as Nic has very much summarized what was needed to be discussed in this forum topic regarding Paul. In my aim to encourage our readers to use the rational approach in thought process, I must agree that we use evidences and not speculations, but I do acknowledge everyone's comments as valid and worthwhile reads and points of discussion. I thank the anonymous contributor for initiating a fruitful exchange of views and thoughts... Let's keep them coming guys... Thanks!
ReplyDeleteHello again everyone!!! I'm so pleased that the discussion became very interesting, thanks to our anonymous contributor who have initiated a fruitful discussion, and Gemini who is constantly in the watch for interesting topics he can join in. I am especially pleased that My Mentor Nic Madlayan has decided to join thif forum, and hopefully share his profile as I will be creating his own page, is he agrees...
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nic, 100% and would like to add my comments, all in good time because Nic has very much summarized all that is needed to be tackled in this forum - topic about Paul. For who is better to answer them all than the master of Inductive Study.
I would like to provide my short comment, as Nic has answered the questions of our anonymous contributor... Agreed, like Crystal, 100%. To add to what Nic said, again, I ask, where can we find that there is a need for churches and pastors? Paul initiated all these to confuse everyone, because he contradicts Jesus. He is the AntiChrist, as he was the first to contradict Christ... this is for further discussion. For now, let's do our homework and study some more, I would like to encourage our anonymous contributor to do some reviewing to get your answers. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteThank you, Nic but Cain, Nero, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot chose to remain "wicked" to the end. I do not see the comparison to Paul. I am no bible-thumper nor religious fanatic but if I recall right, no matter how wicked you have lived your life, if you repent even just before your last dying breath, you are forgiven. It remains irrefutable that Paul played an integral part in the propagation of Christianity, just as Hitler inadvertently espoused faith out of utter horror. Wherever Paul is now, he has fulfilled his purpose. Just out of curiosity, how are you so certain of his whereabouts?
ReplyDeleteCrystal, thank you for your comments regarding my posts.
Welcome back anonymous... here:
ReplyDelete1. Be careful anonymous, for there is a verse about what happens to people who say the wicked are forgiven and that they are delivered...
Malachi 3:14-15
14 Ye have said, It [is] vain to serve God: and what profit [is it] that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, [they that] tempt God are even delivered.
If you do a careful study of the above verses, you will understand that the wicked will have their defenders, and those that say that the wicked are delivered know not the Law. And these verses were uttered by righteaous people, having doubts about God if he were to forgive the wicked.
Now let us find out what God has to say about what he plans for the wicked...
@Gemini: I never mentioned the need for churches and pastors as I myself speak my truth. Yes, Paul may have initiated all of that to confuse people but again, the old testament has been superseded. Jesus himself rebelled against "the church". So, yes, Paul was contradicting Jesus but again, this "confusion" caused by Paul as you so aptly put it, is a step towards helping us find our truth and to understand what faith really is. I don't go to church because I feel that it makes me more a sinner as I have the constant urge to refute or argue what the priest is saying. But, I do have a church and it has no walls and no boundaries and it resides in my heart.
ReplyDeleteMy argument remains. Paul may be the anti-Christ as he was the first to contradict Christ based on your research but it is important to know your truth first so as not to get confused with all these readings and researches. I already have my answers and so am answering the question "Is Paul a true apostle of Christ?" based on my truths. Everything about religion and/or faith, including the bible and other materials, is meant to be abstract to encourage you to feel and experience your way into the light and not read your way into it.
Anyhow, I appreciate your encouragement. :)
If God shall do the righteous justice, this is what his people will say:
ReplyDeletePsalms 58:10-11
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily [there is] a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
And again, if the 5th seal was not opened, what you were talking about that Paul and the wicked can repent, and that they will be forgiven, they could have been pardoned, but, sorry, the 5th seal was opened:
Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What do you think God will do? Will he not listen to the blood of the righteous who were slain calling out for justice?
Just to add my views... I guess the main issue now is no longer about Paul, since anonymous has clearly stated he has already found his own truths... and will not regard our studies anymore. I will be my blunt self now, and I don't mean to be personal, anonymous, I am a firestarter and you will hear what I am truly thinking, no disrespect for anyone... Your own truths? Are you really a believer of Jesus, or hanging on to a false promise that everyone will be forgiven and redeemed? You think is that easy? Salavation? No rules, no laws, just faith??? In our world, where do you find such a set up that you will be pardoned of your crimes without the consequences? how much more in the after life or God's kingdom?
ReplyDeleteOwn truth shall not stand, for Jesus has given us the truth... if we will question that, we may as well become atheists, and question his very existence... If you truly believe in Jesus, find out what he meant and what he said...
Also, there is a term for own truth - Pragmatism. Therefore, you believe in your own truth and your own experiences, regardless of the one who came down and has given us the instructions on how to follow him and how to be deserving of him... I myself am not religious, and I do not go to any church, but because I can not, in all my years of study and search, contest a single word that Jesus uttered, for they make sense and are very truthful and meaningful. I am humbled with the greatness of this Son of God, as a person and as a teacher. SO to say, the very least that I am going to believe my own truths and experiences... I may as well be Christ myself... so there...
ReplyDeleteAlso by researching and studying, you glorify the Creator more for you will discover how Just, how Mighty and how Intelligent he is. I would rather find out little by little about our Creator and Jesus, the Son, than claim he comes inside me and inspire, that crap and all... psychosis and Jerusalem syndrome are the terms for experiencing the Holy Spirit in us... The Apostles, if you would study, have to go thru particular preparation, strict criteria and would need to qualify, before the Holy Spirit came upon them, and we, regular joes and janes claim that we have the Holy Spirit? I'm sorry, but that's just absurd, and does not make any sense, irrational thoughts... Hey, just trying to be honest! Don't mind me, lol
Knowlede is information
ReplyDeleteWisdom is judgment
Understanding is inspiration...
All these we need to be wise...
Be wise and upright to be worthy of Him.
All is vain if we do not become wise in his eyes... If we continue to rejoice in our own folly, inequities, and remain fools, we are not worthy of service.
ReplyDeleteAnd Paul by the way, is NOT AN APOSTLE... He claims to be an apostle, but clearly does not meet the criteria, let's ask him who chose the only apostles worthy of Him:
ReplyDeleteJohn 15:26-27
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Here is the criteria for apostleship:
Acts 1:16-24
16Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Clearly, Jesus chooses his servants, and the most elite are the apostles. Even Judas was anointed, but was astray, but nevertheless, once a true apostle, to the law and to the testimony. If you can see, the apostles have to be with Him from Beginning To The End, and were baptized by the Holy Spirit, except for Judas.
You, therefore choose who to believe, Paul, or Jesus.
Bottomline, Paul is a liar.
ReplyDeletePragmatism, anointed, appointed, apostles -- labels all the same.
ReplyDeleteCrystal, are you not borne of God Himself? Are you not a representation of Jesus Himself? If you truly believe in Jesus then why do you separate yourself from Him? Neither do I contest any of His words as they are always true especially when applied to the present practical life. The thing is you refer to the word "apostle" in a very strict sense. Are you not an apostle yourself if it is to mean in the basic sense as being a believer and follower? I have nothing against your studies and researches, all for the good, I say... but that is not how I found God, patterned myself to Jesus and understood absolute faith. Although I must say that I am saddened that after all your studies and research you still have not felt the Holy Spirit in you.
It is not a question of whether Paul was a liar or not. And don't get me wrong, Nic, but I am not speaking in defense of the wicked. In your strict sense of the word "apostle", yes, Paul wasn't one of the "chosen" ones. But based simply on the things he had done, he could be "considered" an apostle if the term is to be loosely understood as follower, proponent or advocate because he did, after all, "convert". All the intricacies of religion wouldn't be the same without him. So I maintain, it remains irrefutable that Paul played an integral part in the propagation of Christianity. Whether he was chosen or he claims to have been is irrelevant. The point is that he "acted" as an appointed and anointed apostle would even if he remained to be "forsaken", which is an act of faith. We all pay our dues.
The Creator is not only just, mighty and intelligent but he has a wicked sense of humor. And I don't mean wicked in a bad way. :)
There is no question as to who I believe. I've always gone straight to the source. Paul be damned, I know my truths. You should be touched by the Holy Spirit to find out what Jesus means in the things He says. It is futile to attempt it through intellectualizing.
Although an idle mind is the devil's playground, words are, too, the devil's playthings. ;)
And with that I end. Peace be with you all.
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIf you should decide to visit us again, then you are most welcome, and please don't get all too hostile, and then say peace be with, lol, as you sounded very upset. The forum topic, may I remind is IS PAUL A TRUE APOSTLE OF JESUS... With you admitting now that Paul is not an apostle, then don't you agree that we have arrived to the same conclusion? Unless someone else joins us and present CLEAR EVIDENCES, that Paul is INDEED AN APOSTLE... I am smiling right now, to be honest because try as everyone may, the bottomline is rational thinking, and for you to be rational, you must filter what you want to believe, instead of absorbing everything thrown at you.
SO ISN'T IT CLEAR THAT YOU AGREE ON PAUL NOT BEING A TRUE APOSTLE, WHEN YOU SAID:"HE PLAYED AN INTEGRAL PART so on and so forth. The main agenda is to get the truth out, whether Paul is an Apostle or not, read the forum header... So if you want to argue another topic, being apologetic like the apologetic fathers, you place a suggestion in the corresponding link. If you want to keep responding to defend Paul's apostleship, by all means, but you present your proof, because you can not just claim anything, even your experiences ARE UNIQUE TO YOU, it doesn't mean that it is the truth, that is pragma... Big word, pragmatism, but ain't that what you're promoting? Your OWN TRUTH? I suggest you write YOUR OWN BIBLE, if that becomes a habit... OWN TRUTH, without witnesses, without basis and contrary to what Jesus has taught, sorry, but just unnacepteble to me.
That is why we base our conclusion ON ACTUAL ACCOUNTS OF THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED BACK THEN, AND WE BASE OUR BELIEFS IN WHAT JESUS TAUGHT US, BECAUSE WE JUST CAN NOT FATHOM TO BELIEVE OUR OWN TRUTHS, AS MANY OF US DO.... Is it so hard to realize that there are laws that can not be broken, for if you refer to the Bible, God is a God of Law and Order... Not lies, not murder, not false claims, not self proclamation... Simple. Hard to believe that for many because they justify their own sins and faults, and just easily say, I repented, so God will forgive me, without following his very rational instructions... And mind you, you're subtle, but you accuse the people who devote their time and their lives to BE WORTHY OF HIM, as the devil... READ YOUR MEDIUM, READ THE BIBLE, EVERYTHING HAS BEEN GIVEN, BUT WE CHOOSE CONVENIENCE OVER WISDOM... yes man, READ... I'm guessing you are a man, for I am a writer and can tell you are a male, and I'm glad you joined in... And rational thinking, the correct thought process even taught me how to read a signature, and I might have a clue as to who you are, lol, but that's just mine... my point is tudying does you a lot of good.
Anyway, false claims, accusations, apologies, lies, convenient escapes, these are all from the subject, Paul, and the original source of the word faith, without proof, and faith without work - Lucifer.... yep, if you do your homework, as Jesus would want us, several times he mentioned that the path is narrow, and the door is not open to everyone... you can enter your OWN DOOR, or learn and accept that you don't know everything, and there is so much more to learn and discover... We loaded a lot of info, as there are other readers too you know, and the Element of Will in a nutshell, is that your thoughts and actions should be beneficial to you and the others concerned... So defending lies, is not beneficial...
Again, let's practice rational thinking, as it is needed in every aspect of life... and here, the premise is to find out whether Paul is a true apostle, according to the Law and the Testimony, and according to Jesus who chooses his apostles... Present facts, or be regarded as opinionated, biased to your own claims... you choose, rational, or the other... But man, thank you!!! We had a lot of fun, and learned further, our contributors have taught me some more, so I walked away with a bunch of new information and thoughts to process...
Crystal, a Firestarter
Because of the abominable acts he had committed, a criminal was reborn in a hell in the form of a horse. As such, he was harnessed with two other horses to a very heavy carriage. The torture inflicted upon this unfortunate consisted of pulling this carriage up an incredibly steep path through the top of a mountain. Despite their conjoined efforts the three animals were unsuccessful at moving this heavy vehicle, and the demons whipped them mercilessly. Then a huge wave of compassion surged up in the heart of the ex-criminal turned horse-in-hell.
ReplyDelete"Detach my companions", he said to his torturers, "free them, I will pull the carriage by myself".
"Miserable animal!", cried one of the demons in fury. "You cannot even budge this carriage as three, how dare you claim to be able to do it all alone!"
And in a fit of rage the demon hammered a terrible blow with the iron stock of his whip onto the skull of the compassionate horse. The latter fell down dead and was immediately reborn in paradise.
With everything said, we are what we are... Let no man (for that matter, woman too) tell you who you are and how you think... that is your own, and let noone take it away from you... I love hearing opinions and stories and finding out about what people think of... I learn from them. Hope you guys do too... Come on,let's start another fire!!!
ReplyDeleteCrystal
Hi Sophie! Glad you joined us... Great choice...
ReplyDeleteThe Abominable Nature of Sin. Keep them coming... One sinner, and thousands of demons, or the other way around? Both abominable? I think not... But if the premise is the Hebrew and Judaic rendition of the abominable, and the sin... we need a solid foundation to base our conversations upon... Let's meet on a neutral, fair ground, of your choice of course Sophie...
This is our nature, which is not necessarily bad, but not very accurate either - WE APPLY HUMAN ASPECTS TO FORCES AND THINGS WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, so as to eliminate, if not, alleviate our fear of the unknown, and begin to understand these forces, and relate to them. This is the fact, you may ask the experts and those with PhDs, anthropology, humanities, psychology, refer to the books if you must, but no one can contest this, it is a known fact. Why do you think we fall inlove with pets who display intelligence and have human qualities? Why do we have to analyze the thoughts of beasts as our own, in our struggle to understand them? Why do we name the heavenly bodies and give them human regard? Why do we have myths about forces and the mystery of the cosmos, adding human qualities to the stars and the planets? And one of my most recent and important discoveries from last year, is the Psychology of Humanization. This is how we combat inhumane acts, by applying humanity to the almost inhuman people. By reminding them that they are human, and we are the same as them, we catch them off guard, and thus the beginning of mercy... This is the same as our approach on mysteries and divinity... If theists are concerned, in particular, monotheists, I will tell you now, we are all prone to applying human qualities to the force that we know little of... We are forgetting that IT is beyong finite understanding and capacity.IT is far more sophisticated and intelligent than we are... IT displays power in a different way... The IT I'm talking about is the creator of the Christian God, which is a version of IT, and IT's own choice, because it knows we cannot comprehend its power. IT knows we are susceptible to our nature... IT knows we will apply human qualities to IT. IT knows everything... So if we, despite of ITs stooping down to our diminutive level, still do not do our very least of duties to try to be more wise, and more upright, IT does not have to do anything else, because IT has done everything, and has no lack, has no needs and has no need for us... By understanding this, you are humbled, as a normal person should be, and not be a fool to even be vain and require more from IT... If we admit we are human, applying human qualities to the divine, then LET'S BE GOOD AT IT... COMEON, YOU CAN BE BETTER!!!
ReplyDeleteIT is everything and nothing.
ReplyDeleteIT is like the water of the ocean: even without wind there are waves everywhere.
Letting go of knowledge in the midst of knowing is like the subtle within the subtle.
This is the sphere of the enlightened.
Hi Sophie,
ReplyDeletenice touch! it's truly beautiful... I appreciate beautiful things and poetry...
now Sophie, please get used to my raw, dull and unpolished daggers... you didn't do anything wrong... but here's me again being myself:
I'm glad that we are joined by the enlightened... although this is the second time the word enlighten has been used in this forum, haven't heard Nic utter enlighten, not once, hmmmm I guess we (Nic, Gemini and I) are a group of the unenlightened... lol! The Unenlightened Firestarters! Öh by the way, Invictus, I have no idea who you are, but please join us in the dark here... lol
Seriously, Sophie nice touch, doubled. But, I remain baffled as to what the relevance of all these - to the forum topic....??? Anonymous who left a bunch of signatures lol, has also left hanging unfinished business here... which is deciding whether we have achieved our objective OF FINDING OUT WHETHER PAUL IS A TRUE APOSTLE or not.... Had I known that we will be talking about grand scheme of things, faith, fate and destiny, enlightenment, I'd have edited the header... oh well... I asked for this...lol!
Sophie, great to have you around, don't worry bout me, I'm just a broken glass piece in the sand, waiting for feet, ahahaha!!!
Hi everyone! I can see you've all been busy here. Anyway, are we all good that Paul is not an apostle? I'm still waiting for other opinions, and hopefully accompanied by well prepared view points with proof, since we are talking about the history of a liar. I am still convinced that Paul is not an apostle, was never an apostle, was a liar and the Son Of The Devil. There is a mission, to those who do not know, that Jesus ordered for us to trample upon the words and teachings of the liar and the Anti Christ, so to the defenders of Paul, be careful, you do not know what the consequences are and who you're really defending. As you will prosper and be bountiful in the defense of the Liar, but The Christ will judge us all... But I guess this is too much studying and reading the bible is too big a task for some of us... Crystal was right, some choose convenience over wisdom...
ReplyDeleteThis is in response again to our anonymous contributor who shy away from reading, studying and research...
ReplyDeleteThis is for all the readers to understand how important seeking wisdom is...
It is a requirement of us... we may try to escape, but this is our duty... seek wisdom.
Proverbs 1
20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
Believers and non believers, seek wisdom, be wise and learned... Think and Learn...
An uncertainty of mind can produce only a lack of understanding. An open mind can be alert and thus be aware of the many influences and conditions which tend to prejudice the mind and make it incline towards, and decide on issues which are not relevant.
ReplyDeleteA mind in doubt is a mind which is inclined to disbelieve, and this inclination is already an obstacle to understanding. An open mind will be aware of those obstacles and therefore not be inclined or prejudiced.
But, doubt must not be confused with a withholding of judgement, of consent and support, which is the attitude of an open mind.
It seems to me "faith" has been dumbed down to mean nothing but rigid and uncritical acceptance of dogma. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology. These systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth. But although they are not absolute truth, these systems of thought are wonderful guiding means.
The open mind which does not seek a solution is alert and is thereby able to see clearly without prejudicial doubt, without confusing the issues; and so, through direct investigation it understands with clear insight and without inclination facts as facts, doubts as doubts, false as false; and thus see the truth.
At Sophie - ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! So at last we meet on common ground, I'd agree with you 110%, if I could. No questions, absolutely correct.
ReplyDeleteThere are no absolute truths, except for the truth of God, which is the pure, and absolutely true Law, however. Only propositions, statutes, rules, that are subject to change and modification, for the betterment and benefit of everyone concerned... Thus my book of the elements of the mind, rational thinking...
Now talking about history, we were discussing events that already took place, not ideals, propositions, predictions, theories and whatever have you... As again I would direct this discussion back to the forum topic, because I am the moderator, until everyone in this forum vote that we move on to the next one.
Faith, by the way was not included in the discussion, until we both know who, brought it up. Again, everything is relative. In usage, faith is absolutely a wonderful thing, in terms of relationships and human interaction... the norms... But Sophie, understand that we were discussing about history, and everything else that you read in this forum, and faith included, USING THE SCRIPTURES, THE BIBLE IF YOU MAY, AS OUR REFERENCE AND SOURCE... In my header, the topic proposal, then initially, any person with strong biblical foundation and background would know what Gemini meant when he said ACCORDING TO THE LAW AND THE TESTIMONY. Thus we scrutinize the data using the one and only reference, the Christian Bible... in all English - King James, Greek and Hebrew versions... So if you will propose that we use other references, yeah by all means... get them to vote... Faith, is relative, Sophie. I would use it to tell my partner that I am faithful to him... You know better than the cards you put on the table, Sophie. You strike me as a very intelligent individual, you figure it out.
We are very pleased to have Sophie around... Stay and make this more fulfilling... I love the way people think and make beautiful art in words... Thank you Sophie!
ReplyDeleteTo add to what Crystal said, I am all for love, forgiveness, and if it were up to us, we'd choose the easy way. But in Crystal's profile she said, her God is the universe. And her God is a God of Law and Order, not her own words, but was uttered by the only one who would know how God thinks, so we consult him. Now Crystal said, without law chaos, without order, confusion, and so I would like to request us to put order into this discussion by sticking to the topic. Until we're done, this forum is open to all sorts of topics we find very meaningful and provocative.
ReplyDeleteNow the question remains, whether Paul was indeed an apostle, or was he lying. I am in my mid 40s, spent 25 years studying the Scriptures, Crystal spent 14 years, and Nic older, and was first of us all, we are still in search, but some things like the history of Paul, the laws and the commands, the complexity of Jesus as the Son Of God, and as a man, are some of the few we have already found answers to. It is not the end of our journey, on the contrary, we're far from the finish line, but at least we did our part to start. Wisdom is sought, not spoon fed. This is a law we have to obey, no choice, for we chose this path and we believe in him who sits at the right hand, so understand this, everyone who contradicts the True Light, the Truth and the Life, which is the Christ, will not only get prejudice from us, but are our enemies, like Paul the liar. It doesn't mean we vindicate, connive or do anyone harm, but we choose who to believe and those we dismiss. We chose the path to know the one true source of truth and life.
Pardon me forum folks, I'll insert this as requested by friends. Ok, for my friends who constantly email me, but are reluctant to join, here is your request:
ReplyDeleteTRIVIA
A sample Inductive Study:
Jesus was not good looking, he is short, hunched at the back with thick eyebrows. I got mixed reaction when I first mentioned this in my presentation, but again, with hard work and study, we find answers. Consulting the historians and people who saw him and wrote down their accounts, we then refer back to the prophets, who have already prophesied about how Jesus will look like. Irrelevant, you may think, but this is an example of what you will learn, and aren't these information great? Enrichment of the mind.
Ask me for these verses and references, I will give them to you, and I guaranty 100% agreement and heads nodding. That's what discovery does.
Another sample
Jesus was a lawyer. He practiced carpentry, helped out with Joseph, but devoted his time and hard work to studying and preparing for his mission, to teach the Law. Curious about how we found out? Inductive Study. You would think you knew what Jesus did, but to Nic's own words, which awoke me 14 years ago, "You were taught but you did not study".
You would think that Jesus has everything, all he needs to do is to wave his hand.. NOPE... He earned it. He studied, worked hard, battled against the odds, that's what make him the best man ever to walk the earth, a King who works. Ask me if I can prove it, I can. Studying gets you prepared and confident, not to brag but to be able to share what you've learned.
By seeking knowledge, you gain information, then you process them and you rationalize, fighting your own battles, guided by the elements of the mind, then you start seeking for much more, you then head to the path of seeking Wisdom.
ReplyDeleteThe fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. In context, this should apply to everyone, even the non believers, even the atheists, why? Because if you study the scriptures and do your homework with the concordance, the etymology of the original texts, you'll find that THE FEAR OF THE LORD, is also meant as CONSCIOUSNESS, and the knowledge of THE LAW.
You then begin to understand that the law, is the one true guide towards thinking rationally. We are all within the law, the cosmos follow the laws of nature, and can you imagine a lawless universe? No law of gravity, motion and energy? Chaos. So in the mind, we apply these principles. We follow the law of thought.
When we master these techniques, feel, think, perceive, reason then the ultimate, will, which is to make decisions that will prove beneficial to ourselves and to everyone concerned, we gain the foundation of wisdom.
It does not end there. Being wise, is not the ultimate goal. We need to UNDERSTAND. The wisdom given to us will not benefit anyone, until we attain UNDERSTANDING. This is why Jesus, when he referred to Solomon as the wisest man, and no man shall rise like him, is BETTER THAN SOLOMON, how? Because Jesus had all three, knowledge, wisdom and understanding. That is the only time we receive the inspiration of God, when we have knowledge, wisdom and understanding.
Jesus is now more glorified, because we now not only know that he died for us, but he was a man of dignity, intergrity, wisdom, courage and truth.
That is how we roll. That is true worship. We don't utter meaningless words, when we speak, we know what we speak of. All for his glory.
Now, enlightenment? Would you dare ask how to be enlightened? You picked it up somewhere, but the fact is, there is accurate commands to be enlightened according to the Law and to the Testimony, precise instructions as to how one can attain TRUE ENLIGHTENMENT, as the Word of God speaks. There is a way, and a complete process, like a manual that teaches one how to be "enlightened". But we do not claim this as ours, it has been given, but many fail to see it, or even choose not to see it.
If I speak of these things but present no proof, no evidences, would you believe me? Talking about rational thinking, of course not. But I tell you I can prove it and I will, that changes things, don't you agree? You study, that's how you learn, that's how you managed to find this link, that's how you become capable of writing and protesting and that's how you decide. Study.
Wisdom calls for us, and we need to seek it.
I can't help it I'm lured. thanks crystal for inviting me back though I had nothing to say at first but Paul being a liar and a psychopat. I was waiting for someone to at least present something about Paul that will make me believe otherwise, but instead incriminated him more. The anonymous didn't help either with their messiah syndrome oozing all over. Read the Hiram key the masons even called Paul a fuc4ed up liar- if the masons can see that, why can't you? see the new group blogs for Paul's mass killing and fund raising, maybe that will deter you from being so full of the holy ghost in amityville. Kudos to the nic guy, for explaining with proof. court of law rules and debate 101 - and the gemini with short liners but obviously has a lot to say about Paul the garbage. But claps to crystal for saying all her piece with such confidence and conviction, and graceful to educate the readers, you have to be so damn pretty with all that brain in there girl. I will join you in the dark crystal if the light includes the messiah wannabes and the sophie coffee club monologue act, btw we have openings here in LA for acts like you.
ReplyDeletexoxoxoxoxox Invictus
Hi Invictus,
ReplyDeleteThanks, very flattering, but I would like to request you to please refrain from calling other participants names and insulting anyone. We would like to be a venue for free discussions, and be respectful of everyone's individuality and opinions. While I speak franklyand come out too strong sometimes, I am still very thankful and appreciative of everyone who joined this forum.
Thanks!
Crystal
A forum is not a forum if everyone agrees with everyone. Mutual admiration embraces and promotes stagnancy.
ReplyDeleteVindictiveness is wicked/evil.
Romans3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
To have greater self-awareness or understanding means to have a better grasp of reality. Now, the opposite of reality is to project onto yourself qualities that are not there, ascribe to yourself characteristics in contrast to what is actually the case. For example, when you have a distorted view of yourself, such as through excessive pride or arrogance, because of these states of mind, you have an exaggerated sense of your qualities and personal abilities. Your view of your own abilities goes far beyond your actual abilities. By addressing this obstacle and by constantly examining your personal character, qualities, and abilities, you can learn to have greater self-understanding. This is the way to become more self-aware.
ReplyDeleteOne of the main obstacles is our pride. This pride is an inflated state of mind and relies on our false view of the transitory collection, which focuses on the existent self, attributed to our body and mind, and distorts it. When we are on top of a very high mountain, we look down on all the lower peaks. Similarly, when we are full of pride, everyone else appears lower. We are the best and everyone else is inferior. This pride is associated with our self-preoccupation and makes us act inappropriately and disrespectfully towards others, thereby bringing us face to face with all kinds of unpleasant and unwanted experiences. As long as we feel and act as though we are the center of the universe, we will never develop real concern for others. To counteract this attitude we train ourselves always to think of them as supremely important by considering their good qualities and by reviewing our own faults and weaknesses.
An authentically empowered person is humble. This does not mean the false humility of one who stoops to be with those who are below him or her. It is the inclusiveness of one who responds to the beauty of each soul. ... It is the harmlessness of one who treasures, honors and reveres life in all its forms.
If we were to put our minds to one powerful wisdom method and work with it directly, there is a real possibility we would become enlightened. Our minds, however, are riddled with confusion and doubt. I sometimes think that doubt is an even greater block to human evolution than is desire or attachment. Our society promotes cleverness instead of wisdom, and celebrates the most superficial, harsh, and least useful aspects of our intelligence. We have become so falsely “sophisticated” and neurotic that we take doubt itself for truth, and the doubt that is nothing more than ego’s desperate attempt to defend itself from wisdom is deified as the goal and fruit of true knowledge.
If we have a good heart, we experience much happiness and relaxation. We have no reason to feel angry or jealous and we have a very happy mind. When we speak, sweet words come out. Even our face is happy and smiling. At night we go to bed with a happy mind and have a very comfortable sleep, without any worries.
People who think they're superior are exceedingly annoying to those who really are.
Hey apologeez for the name calling and the puns, i'm having a great time reading the clowns and the actors. let me say this and i'll fuckin' behave after >>> this sophie character is getting in my nerves, duh, take your shitfull material to the stage and freak everyone out in coffee joints for weirdos>>>>>>> the truth is, you know shit about what we're talking about, now do you? dimwit and trying so hard to impress with her lame poetry bargained at best for a nickel. you're not even aware of what's real or not ditz. you must be one o' those protestant bitches or baptist dimwitz who yell tone deaf and all red from stupid jumping, ya 'tards. try that out in public and front of us we'll jump you like a twinkie. you know nothing, and you talk about annoying>>> bloody hell you're annoying, stupid! ya know what corinthians mean? ya know what epistles mean? are you a corinthian dimwit? it ain't for you skank! did you go to school or are you one of them who went to hillmountain hill peoples schools? duh skank, read, maybe you'll get something, it ain't for you, you're not included there, the hell you use it for? Paul wrote those epistles bitch, your hero was a fuckin' murderer, genocidal maniac, and you kiss his ass>>>> gimme a break ditz go to hell with paul your lover and maybe you can pull your show there. talk about annoying, knows nothing, doesn't even know corinthians who they were, dimwit. the fuck you warn me and praise this dimwit crystal, you know damn shit that this skank doesn't know a thing about the bible>>> go clean some toilets will ya?
ReplyDeleteif yar so smart skank, answer this - where did paul claim he saw jesus? where did paul hear jesus? if you can answer that, good for you you finished grade school, now answer this, what did jesus say about people who will claim they saw him after his death? where is the place jesus warned the apostles the false prophet will claim he saw jesus? stupid bitch>>> corinthians>>> talk about ignorant
ReplyDeleteGood morning, my name is Al Vallio, a Filipino, married and I am currently a member of a religious organization which is of the Christian movement in the country, but I dare not say which one. I opted to declare my true name to be transparent, although I am not so sure if that is a wise decision. I found out about this forum from a fellow Christian, I visited this site and kept read for 3 or 4 days. I have some questions for Nic Madlayan, Gemini and Crystal, for when I read those verses, I was in shock, and investigated for myself. I am a reader myself, and one of the first few books I first read is the Bible. Of course I am against the accusations of Paul - Saul, as a liar, and was tempted to join the discussion but I thought it would be better if I am ready. I will not claim that I know what I do not, and in all my years of reading and praise, I have often referred to Paul's teachings and I was inspired by them. So when I first read about Nic's comment, I don't know why but I asked myself, and then opened the Bible. I focused on the subject of murder acts and the prosecution of early Christians, and of course at first I thought that since Paul repented and had accepted our Lord and Savior, he was forgiven. But then I stumbled upon the verses of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the killing of the children or the innocent. As my Lord and Savior I believe in Jesus Christ, and I know how much he loves children, as several times he ordered his apostles to let the children come to him, and also in his teachings and own words he said in Matthew 18:5-6 - 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
ReplyDeleteSo it's very clear that Jesus loves children and that whoever does harm to them will get a far worse punishment that death. But until I saw this forum, I would not have thought about or remember Saul, later became Paul, as a child murdered. I then did my search of the past of Paul, and in the Bible, as well as several books, he did persecute a lot of Christians and he was even called a widow maker. And then I read about the apostle criteria, that Nic wrote and I do agree that an apostle of Jesus should be with him, as per Paul, he did not even meet Jesus, I could be wrong. I am now inclined to ask more questions, but I would like to be guided accordingly because my foundation is the same as Crystal's and Nic's high regard for the Law, and Nic mentioned something about word for word and the law should be interpreted literally,I do agree. I will not disclose my position in my church, but I am considered an elder in our community.I have attended many studies and seminars, and the Law of God is perfect, according to my knowledge and understanding. When he says something, he means it. So I ask now for you three to further expound on the 2 unforgivable sins and the justice of the Lord, because this is the Law, and therefore must be obeyed. This has become a very fulfilling 4 days as I have discovered and unearthed new things and was reminded of the old ones. Thank you and may God be with you.
Hello everyone! Good to be back, sorry been busy... Invictus, Nic and Gemini are here and we were discussing what you said, and we agreed that you know a great deal about the studies we do and about the true history of Paul. I would like to remind you that this is a public forum and I warn you to refrain from using profanity, as Nic, Gemini and I would like to hear more from you, and it would be a waste if we will be removing your comments if you should do that again... So get your point across without profanity, as you know indeed the secrets to Paul's character. We will wait for Sophie to respond to you about your questions, but we are glad that there is another person from across the sea who knew about that.
ReplyDeleteTo Sophie, welcome back. Sofia is Wisdom, right? Anyway, once again, I would tell you to stick to the forum topic. If we are to talk about the perfect Law here, and somebody doesn't understand the simple forum rules, how can we expect them to understand the perfect Law? How can we expect them to participate with well thought of points. Again, wisdom, are you speaking with yours? Because you were subtle in questioning our character, based on your OWN understanding. Stick to the topic, do not be a shrink or a self proclaimed philosopher, throwing your OWN analogies here, if you know the meaning and usage of arrogance and pride, then you are displaying yours by putting in too much of your OWN knowledge.
Understand first that we are talking about things that were already written, and for the WISE to read and absorb, if you try to understand that, maybe we'll walk away with learning. Literature and word play is not what we're aiming for in this forum. Pride is relative. If we should talk about pride, and other nouns you mentioned, based on the scriptures, we would expect you to know the definition of these terms first, BASED ON THE SCRIPTURES. WISDOM EXPLAINED, BASED ON THE SCRIPTURES, we will not entertain your own opinions and your own definitions, as we are using the King James Bible for our reference.
This is the third time I told you about it. Now, we will be responding to you this time, because you used verses from Paul's epistles. By the way Invictus knew, the Romans and Corinthians are exclusive epistles, it means they are letters written by PAUL, addressed to particular people, and in the Inductive Study, we do not include ourselves in specific epistles, e.g. - like God speaking to his chosen nation, Israel, we are not Israelites and Jews..
If you knew anything about the Corinthians, you would know that they were questioning Paul about his apostleship, thus he resorted to get HIS OWN teachings and messages across... Funny thing about people who make their OWN rules and definition of things. So I will let Nic and Gemini to explain further now. Please stick to the topic the next time you visit us. Thank you.
Sophie, you have a nice name, but it does not fit you. If I were you, I would consider changing your pen name to Moros.
ReplyDeleteTo respond to the verse you used, written by Paul to the Romans - who would know better than Jesus Christ himself. Kindly read Matthew 23:35 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
So are there righteous people according to Jesus? So choose who you want to believe. This is just one verse, and more to come...
Regarding the verse you used, that Paul wrote to the Corinthians - let's ask Jesus again:
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.
Who does Jesus choose to send unto the world? WISE MEN... contrary to what Paul said. If you have understanding, God will never choose foolish people and foolish things to confound, humiliate, confuse the world. It is only Paul's own words.
And remember the words of Jesus Christ, read Matthew 24:35
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Therefore, the words of the Lord Jesus Christ are true and absolute. Unless of course you choose to believe Paul over Jesus.
About Corinthians 1:28 - "base things of this world"? Paul once again gave his own opinion, like you, and those opinions are based on this world, that is the wisdom of this world. Words that we should accept are the things that Jesus say, not opinions. If we analyze, Jesus uses evidences, like when he declared that THERE ARE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE in the past, and there will be in the future. Is Paul contradicting Jesus by saying no one is righteous? I suggest you read more of Jesus' teachings than the exclusive epistles of Paul. Those were personal letters to particular people, why butt in?
A glimpse on Paul's erroneous thinking and his questionable character, he does not only contradicts Jesus, he also contradicts himself, so Invictus may be on to something when he said Paul is a psychopat, something is wrong with hie way of thinking - 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and sanctification, and redemption.
You still stand by Paul's claim that there is none righteous? Or are you now thinking rationally that Paul is confused, like yourself?
Also Sophie, the true temple of God are the people who have received the Holy Spirit, and there is a criteria to achieving that, the apostles were given that privelege, and the righteous people. For only the righteous will be considered the temple of God. If you should think about what Paul was saying that no one is righteous, then no one else deserves to call themselves the temple of God. You claim your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Prove it. Prove you are righteous and you believe in Jesus Christ, rather than listening to the man who falsely claim to be an apostle, and contradicts the words of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteSophie, welcome back and good day to you. As a co-administrator of this blog, I would like to extend my apologies as to what Invictus said. We warned him for the second time, and we will remove all his comments if he should come back using insulting words and profanity again. Only for the sake of welcoming everyone, and that Invictus has certainly his own studies and knowledge about Paul's history, which is our forum topic, did we decide to retain him in the forum But the next he does that, we will remove all of his comments. So you decide whether you will answer his questions addressed to you.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed to me Sophie that you do not read the Bible that much, and that you're influenced by the dogma of your church or your pastor. I feel that you do not have an identity of your own. Nic has said a lot about Paul, I think that when you join any forum, please try to adhere to forum rules, which is to focus on the topic.
I would like to emphasize about the verse you used from Paul's epistle to the Corinthians. If God will choose the foolish things and foolish people over the wise, then there is no sense to education and studying, let's just all be foolish to be chosen by God.
Why does the government spend billions on education and research? You need to analyze that first, before you claim you know what wisdom is. Better start reading the Book of Proverbs for you to learn about wisdom.
I would also like to help you with your reading by leaving you a question - from Paul's own writing, an epistle to Timothy:
1 Timothy 1:20 (King James Version)
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Come back with your response as to how you understand this verse.
Good day.
Hello Al! Welcome to the Firestarter Forum, I'm glad you can join us. We hope that in our humble way we can try our best to answer your questions and provide you with your request. Nic would like to start, then later on Gemini and I will add our contribution. Thank you Al!
ReplyDeleteHello Al! Welcome! I would like to enlighten you with this verse Matthew 18:5 - 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
ReplyDeleteJesus was talking to his Apostles that we must receive the Kingdom of Heaven and believe in Him as a little child. He called one child to make as an example.
Matthew 18:6 - 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
As you can see here, Jesus has now spoken of "little ones", plural, in the previous verses, the subject was one child, now in verse 6, he said "little ones", who was he talking about when he said "little ones"?
He was talking about the early followers of Jesus Christ, like little children, with young belief, it was no longer an example based on children because the word "believeth" was used. So he was talking about the people who began to believe in him.
Now, the judgment of Jesus Christ for the persecutors of these early followers are as follows: "it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea". It means these people who do his followers harm and offend them are worthless and without justification. Having said that, Paul has persecuted the early followers of Jesus Christ, and there will be no justification for him, as the Law Of The Prophecy Of Jesus has been fulfilled.
You are right about the apostle criteria, and there are two kinds of apostles in Greek - Apostoleo and Apostolos. Verb and Noun - Apostoleo - to send out with a message, verb. Apostolos - the commissioners who were given authority, noun.
Now, the commissioners are the Apostles of Jesus, and Paul could not carry out a message from the Apostles either. So therefore, he was not an apostle because he was never with Jesus and was never given the authority, only those who have received the TWO Holy Spirits, there has to be 2. He could not even be a messenger of the Apostles for he consistently fought and contradicted them, so he created his own messages.
Now, let's discuss about The Law. Please read Deuteronomy 4:5-6
ReplyDelete5Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Also, Joshua 1:8-10
8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
9Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.
For the additional verses, why I referred to the Book of Moses, is because of this: John 1:17
17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Now to understand what this means - For the Law, and anything that pertains to the Law, we need to refer back to Moses, but for the Grace and Truth, we refer to Jesus, which is what the Gospel means - Grace and Truth, that is what Jesus brings.
So Al, read these guidelines and come back to this forum for further quesries and questions.
As our readers can see, there are a lot of discussion points brought up, surrounding the question of Paul's Apostleship. This is a legitimate question, that brought about a lot of thinking and studying. I would like to encourage everyone to participate in the discussion.
ReplyDeleteI especially like the discussion about The Law. As you can see, there is a reason why we refer back to the Old Testament, because if we are to know, understand and observe the Law, we need to know what they are first. We must have a strong foundation of the Law, before we proceed to receiving further grace. We need to look back and know how the righteous have established their relationship with God.
When we want to attain wisdom, we then refer back to The Proverbs of Solomon. This is the basic foundation of effective study of the Scriptures,the Inductive Study. For in Proverbs shall we learn right conduct, ethics and ultimately, Wisdom.
Proverbs 28:9 (King James Version)
ReplyDelete9He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
The prayers on the unlawful will not be heard, but are considered abomination to God.
Today's verse:
ReplyDeleteProverbs 17:15 (King James Version)
15He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
It is not pride that we reprove the people who stand by the wicked, who defend the most wicked of them all, Paul, the false prophet. The law and judgment has long been given, and allows no justification. Forgiveness are for those who deserve it, who work hard to abide the the statutes, who serve and respect God above all men. Take no offense as this is the path to righteousness, let The Law govern, reprove and enlighten you.
This page is crawling with bigots!
ReplyDeleteCarry on, pretentious little fools!
You're all mine! Ira! Invidia! Superbia!
For Christian, although I doubt that's your real name and if you're new or you're from a familiar party... Define bigotry, can you? Then you specify the actual comments and people where you feel that there was bigotry...
ReplyDeleteAs you can read, the title is Firestarter - free talk, provocative issues that we were talking about some place else... This site was created to air out what we want to talk about, freely.
So as I know you're someone obviously hurt or was sent by someone hurt, think first before you guys enter a forum, and if you can't fight your own battles and you feel pushed in a corner, be challenged and be better, rather than commenting senseless statements that don't benefit anyone, but your ego...
Really painful when ego is hurt, ain't it? That's life deal with it, and stop hiding from word play if you're really God fearing... Defend your stand! Otherwise create your own blogspot... The law will have a lot of enemies, we were ready for that...
So if you're narrow minded, spam away... if you do not write anything that relates to the forum topic, I will remove your comments... If you do, you're most welcome, even if you are against my stand, I will welcome you...
I am getting my objective to provoke people to FEEL AND THINK, question is, are you getting what you aim for???
REMINDER: We have an ongoing topic here, and I am only entertaining comments about the topic... As for your "feelings" and suggestions, please go to this link: http://firestartergotexcited.blogspot.com/p/suggest-topics-here.html
ReplyDeleteor click the Suggest Topics Here tab.
Thank you!
At Christian, or whoever you are, if we stepped on someone else's ego, or yours, be brave enough to face us... If you can't handle the heat, leave!
ReplyDeleteWho's irate, proud and full of grudge? You can't present your stand, you resort to judging people... And you're obviously very upset... As you can see, we know this is a normal reaction, from people who think HIGHLY OF THEMSELVES and too proud to let the Almighty rule them...
Don't worry, you're not the first one, there were many in history, before you even existed... That is exactly what we expect. The Law brings dispute, as Jesus said, and many will rise to fight it...
Piece of advice, channel your ANGER into something productive, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this blog... It's in my book, OVERCOME YOUR FEELINGS, the emotions - just one element to master, if you won't step up a notch and go beyond the first stage, you won't be able to think rationally... the next step you'll take will be destructive...
Accept your inequities, maybe you'll understand... God will fill all your holes for you... I've been there, believe me I know. We come out as proud, but really, it's The Law you disprove of, like many of us initially did...
Let your willingness to serve God conquer your ego and emotions... you'll see...
I am waiting until tomorrow for people to respond regarding the topic of Paul's Apostleship. If nobody responds, we will vote on another good topic, and I'll place this thread to the archived forums...
ReplyDeleteIf there are no more comments about Paul, I will leave you with this:
There is always the clashing of the minds, all too brilliant to control, or so we think... The dynamics of contradicting, competing and provoking minds, wrestling with each other, brought about destruction, hatred, war, blood shed, deception and rage; but can also bring justice, peace, unity, innovation, creativeness and progress...
The truth is in the mind, therefore, everyone wants to be right, but very few want to be true...
Crystal
This forum is officially closed. I will be placing this thread in the archived tab, and will post a new topic today...
ReplyDeleteCrystal
Now, religious talk aside, you, yes you! You think you can get to me, but I got to you first... How? I played with your emotions, and now you're unsettled, now you're angry and vengeful and yes, you are irrational... because you let your emotions run you... I said the next step you'll take is destructive... But you'll never get to destroy anything else, other than yourself... you are shaken... because you stopped at the 1st stage - element of feel, and didn't survive it... There are 5 to master, and a 6th to achieve... let it be a turning point... You face the challenges and the stumbling blocks by dealing with your feelings first, arise and be renewed, you have learned an important lesson, if you opened your eyes, but if they remain closed, you stay in the path to destruction... get back up and finished what you started or what you got yourself into... think, perceive, reason and let good will be your guide... what did you gain? nothing yet, but it's not too late... get up and reap the benefits of learning... I dare you!
Rottencandy
Crystal, do not close the topic yet because I have some questions for you, Gemini and Nic. I apologize for the delay because I was very busy with our activities. Anyway, I am very please, and really curious now about what Nic said, and the verses that support your studies. I admire Nic's manner of explaining the verses he used, specifically the verse in Matthew about a child. I knew about this kind of scrutiny in effective study, but I didn't realize what these verses really meant until Nic, explained it.
ReplyDeleteSince I reviewed the verses Nic, Crystal and Gemini gave, I am beginning to understand why your conviction that Paul was not apostle is so strong. However, all these verses are pertaining to the inconsistencies of Paul's statements and writings, as opposed to Jesus' teachings. We can see no flaw in Jesus' own words because he is of different level as compared to the apostles. But still, this forum has provoked a lot of thinking and analysis for me, and I am driven now to read more carefully. How do we make sure that Paul's inconsistencies is not due to his lack of wisdom and understanding Jesus has, and only has enough for a man, and not as divine? Is it also due to his past that Paul is confused? I used the word confused because that's what he seemed by the verses the contributor Sophie wrote, and the verses that Nic have explained. Can he be labelled as a confused man, but still be eligible for apostleship? I doubt that you will say yes, because you would say that the apostles should have clarity and wisdom. Please understand the majority of the Christian communities rely on Paul's teachings, even ours. So it is only right that I get all the answers before I decide. But I am not critical of what you have stated, just wanted to be sure.
Thank you for accommodating me in this forum and I hope we can discuss this further.
Al Vallio
For Al Vallio:
ReplyDeleteLet us be clear that Paul was not confused, he was born to lie. He is a murderer and a liar, and all murderers have a behavioral pattern according to Jesus. After the murder, they lie.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Lucifer is the instigator of murdering acts and can also kill people's relationship with God.
About Paul's past, his persecution was prophecied, and prophecies must be fulfilled. Here are the verses to summarize the activities of a murderer and a liar, according to Jesus:
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
These verses above are the reasons why Paul engaged in murdering the innocent and the righteous. Now below
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Acts 6:7-10
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Remember verse 9, and take note of the loactions of the synagogues, especially Cilicia:
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Now to connect this verse with Acts 6:9, why I emphasized verse 9, below is Galatians 1:14, a disclosure from Paul:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Paul was a leader in his own nation, the City of Tarsus, particularly the synagogue of Cilicia. And the verse proving Paul's claim:
Acts 21:39
39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
So Paul was the leader of the Synagogue of the Cilicians, and therefore was there when Stephen disputed and defeated the pharisees, lead by Paul, who was Saul then. Please read about what happened to Stephen, and you will know what Paul did to fulfill the prophecies of Jesus.
Now going back to the murderer's behavioral pattern, they will lie after committing a murder. We have established Paul's murders and lies.
I will ask you this - to whom will Paul lie? I will let that question be answered by you, but if you find some difficulties, I will give you the answer.
Again, to Al, analyze this as I will be giving you verses for you to study:
ReplyDeleteJohn 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Acts 1:8
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And also:
Acts 2:3-4 (But also do contextual reading with the previous verses)
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
If you have questions, I will gladly answer and reconcile the above verses for you. There are many verses about Paul that you can study, especially in his epistles, and that they are lies. I'll give you one:
Romans 1:1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Note: If you think that Paul was responsible in spreading Christianity to all nations, that is a big lie. I will show you the verses as to who was responsible for spreading Christianity in the world.